1. In order to combat the SPAM challenges we have been facing, I have chosen for the registration of new forum members to be manually approved. If you are registering as a new member, please fill out your profile as much as your comfortable doing. By doing this it shows us that you are not a spammer and will ensure that you’re registered to the form quickly. Should you be denied by mistake, please email justin@trabantforums.com
  2. I have received a lot of messages asking about the future of the forums once my car sells. Well today it sold and will soon be on its way to its new home. With that said, for the forums, there is more information under 'Announcements" titled "Future of the Forums' you could also copy and paste this link: http://www.trabantforums.com/threads/future-of-the-forums-donations.1762/
  1. Wartburg353W

    Wartburg353W Loyal Comrade

    I had Nippon Denso installed by a mechanic in Hungary and they have been great but I am finding them hard to come by in my area. Are NGK as good? I have some Isolator made in GDR plugs but they are more for display, I daresay.
  2. turbofiat124

    turbofiat124 Premium Member Forum Donor

    First of all can you even buy the correct plug in the United States for a Trabant or Wartburg? I've tried entering the plug numbers I've found on Ebay.de (like Bosch and Champion) into AutoZone or Advance's website and it comes up nothing.

    Second, I've used about every brand imagionable in my turbocharged Fiats and they perform the same.
  3. Keri

    Keri Leader

    NGK BR6HS Available at my local motorcycle store, these plugs last a good 20,000km
    I went 25,000km on my last set without problems though they were getting quite worn.
    The deposits indicate this plug is good for my driving conditions.

    It doesn't show well in the foto but the center electrode is quite a bit rounded.
    This normal wear increases the firing voltage a lot, causing more stress on the entire ignition system as well as reducing power.

    At work, we use NGK and Denso.
    Denso seems to be the better plug but NGK are pretty good.
    Both are far better than Bosch or any American plug that we've seen people use.

    IMG_5159a.jpg


    I'm thinking of going with Denso IWF20 Iridium plugs next time....
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2013
    Wartburg353W likes this.
  4. Wartburg353W

    Wartburg353W Loyal Comrade

    Yeah it's very hard to cut through the crap to find spark plug numbers. Each one of them has at least two different numbers and the cross references may or may not have one set or the other. For example, The NGK plug I finally settled on is B8HS. But I couldn't find them until I figured out they are also called B8HS-10 and 5126.

    On your other point, I agree with you that a spark plug is probably more or less a spark plug. I just know this guy really got my cars running well with the Denso plugs and for the price I'd like to stay "on a roll" so to speak. Although I have it on pretty good authority Champion can be of spotty quality.
  5. Wartburg353W

    Wartburg353W Loyal Comrade

    Thanks Keri!
    That is pretty much exactly what I was hoping you would say. I went with NGK B8HS because the mechanic who tuned my car used bigger coils and hotter plugs; and I didn't need the resistor feature. If these turn out to work as well for me as yours do for you, I will probably use the B6HS in my other car, which retains the stock coils.
  6. Keri

    Keri Leader

    Our Trabi motors, designed in an era with weak 6v ignition and low-tech sparkplugs are not especially fussy about spark plugs.
    Most modern plugs that fit and are an appropriate heat range for your driving conditions will be far better than what the engineers had in mind so many decades ago.

    However, "sparkplugs is sparkplugs is sparkplugs" is no more true than "gasoline is gasoline is gasoline".

    I am a person that has to diagnose and fix the problems brought on by bad gas and cheap sparkplugs.
    It ain't fun!

    In my professional opinion, the Japanese make the worlds best sparkplugs, especially Denso followed by NGK.
    The vehicles I repair daily come from the factory with Denso or NGK, usually iridium or platinum-tipped.
    The Densos seem to last a little longer and fewer ignition coils fail with these.

    A few of our customers go elsewhere for sparkplugs and usually get bargain basement American brands or sometimes Bosch.
    Then they bring it to me to figure out why it won't run right!
    Installing Denso or NGKs has always improved things and sometimes fixed very puzzling behaviors.
    Even with expensive Bosch sparkplugs.
    It seems that our motors, unlike Trabi motors, ARE very "fussy" about sparkplugs.

    Do I feel sorry for the cheapskates that put el-cheapo sparkplugs and/or gasoline in their expensive foreign luxury car and then have to spend vast sums with my employers to get it fixed?
    Not one bit!
  7. turbofiat124

    turbofiat124 Premium Member Forum Donor

    The only time I ever bought a defective spark plug was for my 2006 Explorer. These were Autolite iridiums and at $13 a pop, they should have been checked before they left the factory. I could understand if these were the run of the mill $1.69 plugs.

    The truck had the original plugs in it (guessing) and at 115,000 miles they needed to be replaced none the less. Well turned out after installing new plugs, the truck started to misfire on #2 cylinder.

    I was actually trying to fix what turned out to a converter stall but lead me to believe it was a misfire. The dealership gave the transmission a power flush and a new filter and fluid and it cured that problem.

    I could have fixed the defective spark plug issue but could not get the check engine light to kick on so the ECU would throw a code and tell me which cylinder it was. When I got the truck to the dealership, the check engine light finally kicked on!

    Could have save me some bucks on the spark plug issue but it was too late.

    Keri, by the way, do you specalize in Nissans? A friend dumped a 1992 Sentra with 210,000 miles on it off at my house and I can't get it to start. He said the car was running OK then all of a sudden started running poorly and he drove it home and it has sat at his apartment until last March. Now it won't start.

    The car is too old to where my OBD II code reader will tell me what's going on with it. I printed off some procedure where you turn the ignition switch on and press the accelerator so many times and it's suppose to cause the check engine light to flash to tell me the code. I haven't done this yet.

    Two things that concern me. One is when the engine turns over, the engine speeds up when it hits a certain cylinder rather than sounding consistant. Maybe it's trying to start.

    Also the #1 spark plug was carbon fouled (leaking injector?) perhaps. This may have been what crapped the cat converter out on the car. Oh yeah, the converter has been replaced with a straight pipe because it was clogged up.

    I can disconnect the hose going to the brake booster, shoot some ether into the hose, tap it off to prevent a vacuum leak and the car will start up and idle fine for a couple of seconds until it runs out. So that leads me to believe the injectors are not firing. The car has 40# of fuel pressure when I turned the engine over. I cannot find a cold start valve on this car. That function maybe handled by the main injectors.

    I have not done a compression test on the engine.

    To the best of my knowledge it seems the mass air meter is not the issue. The wire inside it was not gummed up. And I did a test according to th Chilton's manual and the voltage on one of the wires it says to test is in accordance to the manual (like .7 volts). I figured if something was preventing the injectors from firing, it has to be the mass air meter. What else would prevent the injectors from firing? MAP sensor?

    Assuming the injectors are not firing. I'm going to disconnect one of them and use a test light across the connector to see if they are firing or not.

    This is like a $300 car and it's a mess. It needs a new axle and wheel bearings on the passenger side, the fuel injection system repair and God knows what else it needs. If you seen the car, it would probably cost more to repair it in parts alone (my labor is free) than the car is worth.

    But he is a friend and he doesn't have the money to pay a professional mechanic to fix it. Just wish I could get the car started.
  8. Keri

    Keri Leader

    I have a pretty low opinion of Nissan products.

    Uneven cranking speed is usually poor compression on one or more cylinders.
    This could be simple, like fuel having washed the oil off of the cylinders and rings, "flooded" or it can be bad... like a blown head gasket, burnt or bent valve, holed piston, etc...

    Retrieving codes should have a gas pedal procedure. Google is your friend.

    The only sensor that can stop injectors from firing is the crank sensor. Maybe a cam sensor too. This would also kill the spark.

    Other sensors can affect the injector duration and render the car undrivable. Like a mass airflow sensor.

    If you suspect a malfunctioning mass airflow sensor, try starting the car with it unplugged. If there is no change or it gets worse, the sensor is probably OK.
    The computer will do a pretty good job of compensating for a missing sensor, so unplugging sensors one at a time with the key off then starting might isolate a problem.

    Nissan is pretty infamous for bad injectors. And bad motors generally.
    Be careful with that test light. You don't want to damage the ECU as well as whatever is already wrong.
  9. turbofiat124

    turbofiat124 Premium Member Forum Donor

    If the engine ran smooth for a few seconds after spraying ether into the intake plenium that would lead me to believe the ignition system is not the culptrit.

    I did unplug the mass air sensor and it made no difference. One time I accidently forget to plug the air flow meter up on my Bosch L-jet Fiat 124 Spider and the engine backfired when I tried starting it. Nothing dramatic happened with the Nissan with the mass air meter unplugged.

    As far as the test light is concerned, I forgot that I bought a node tester from Autozone in the electrical section about 15 years ago. It's to test Bosch injector nodes to see if they are firing but might work on Nissans. Actually Autozone is now selling a set for various systems for $25.

    [​IMG]
  10. trabant601

    trabant601 Loyal Comrade

    I recently needed to swap these in. Bosch Super 7532 Cu-Electrode W 5 AC.
    IMG_20131019_071945.jpg IMG_20131019_072003.jpg
  11. Wartburg353W

    Wartburg353W Loyal Comrade

    What led you to those plugs? Were they the type already in one of your cars or did you do a cross-reference somehow? Or a recommendation?
  12. trabant601

    trabant601 Loyal Comrade

    they were a recommendation from a Corvair Trabant guy in Wisconsin who I met once. It reminded me that another Trabant person was here that I forgot about. He sent me some Trabant things in exchange for half of a Corsa that I didn't know with what to do, at that time. I know better than that now, he made out pretty good I think. http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/at-the-garage/classics/1966-chevrolet-corvair-corsa/
    No, it wasn't Jay. I think it was from a 1965 anyway, but almost the same thing as far as I know, sorry Larry, I just don't know and I didn't know you back then.
    back to the plugs. I have them in two Trabants now and have 2 left. then I will be searching too.
    Why did you ask, is that bazaar that I had a match that you didn't expect? What do you you say Keri?
  13. trabant601

    trabant601 Loyal Comrade

    I went to LaCounte Auto across from city hall in 1986 after I bought a 1968 Impala wagon(the first car I ever bought myself $250 and only 20K miles), dad was not amused) and asked if they had my plugs. I showed them the manual. They asked if I wanted those exact plugs. I said, "Sure, why not." They were NOS pre R spark plugs. I got to listen to my engine on the radio after that. Fun for me. They closed a couple of years after that and the building keeps being used for weird things or vacant. I wonder where the wondrous things that they had in NOS storage went.
  14. Keri

    Keri Leader

    Искра!

    I feel that there is too much thought going into sparkplugs for Trabis!

    Basically, for our simple Trabants, we need sparkplugs with the following physical characteristics:

    Flat seat, with gasket
    14mm thread
    12.7mm "reach" or thread depth
    if using German type ignition wires, a threaded terminal

    Basically, a lawnmower sparkplug!

    Heatrange selection is a little more subtle.
    We want the tip of the plug hot enough to not foul or build up excess deposits, but not so hot that pre-ignition occurs. This is usually about 1000-1500℉ 500-800℃
    For a given physical dimension, there might be 4 or so possible heat ranges.

    http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/tech_support/spark_plugs/p2.asp

    For me, with extended high-speed, high load conditions with a low percentage 50:1 oil ratio, a "cold" plug is fine.

    If your driving conditions cause carbon build-up and fouling, a hotter plug might help.

    Our low powered 2-cycle motors with a rich fuel mixture and a lot of oil should use a somewhat hotter plug than a "normal" 4-cycle motor. Sometimes this is called a cooler heatrange.
    A Denso 22 or 20 or NGK 6 or 5 heatrange are the hottest plugs, and even with my high-speed driving an NGK 6 range does not cause detonation. 5 is "hotter" and would not be my best choice.
    Bosch numbering is higher=hotter so a "5" is colder than a "7". A 5 would be suitable for my driving, but it might want to foul up at lower speeds.

    A narrow platinum or iridium center electrode will reduce firing voltage and extend plug life at a higher cost.
    The narrow electrode allows a larger gap and bigger spark.
    I have an expensive set of Denso Iridium 0.4mm electrode plugs on the way, so I'll find out what happens firsthand.
    A spare set of standard 2.0mm electrode NGKs will be in the trunk just in case.

    Double, triple or "split" electrodes are useless gimmicks that often cause trouble.
    The only exceptions I've seen are Denso's "U" groove which if not useful at least is not a troublesome gimmick and..
    some modern motors require the use of specialized extended reach double-electrode plugs to ignite their super lean or stratified charge mixtures.

    Good luck
    You get what you pay for.... if you're lucky!
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2013
    Aaron and trabant601 like this.
  15. turbofiat124

    turbofiat124 Premium Member Forum Donor

    I'm running non resistor Champion plugs in my Fiat Spider with no radio interference. Plus the noise filters on the alternator and the coilpack are gone. Modern radios do not seem to require any filters. I had to add a filter to the "old school" Panasonic I had in my Trabant. When I replaced it with the Fujitsu, I went ahead and hooked it up just in case.

    Why am I running non resistor plugs in my Fiat Spider? Well there was an old autopart store in town and the guy that worked there was the only person who knew how to read the numbers on a spark plug! I was looking for some colder plugs when I installed my turbo system. The guys at Advance and Autozone did not know what the numbers on a spark plug meant. Also if I recall the Bosch and AC Delco plugs Fiat calls for were already the coldest they made. The only other choice was to use a Champion. There maybe others like NGKs out there. Plus I got a killer deal on these plugs. Like $1.00 a piece. Not $13 a piece like what my V8 Explorer calls for. Suck on that Ford!
  16. Wartburg353W

    Wartburg353W Loyal Comrade

    I'm actually not trying to overthink this or look for gimmicky solutions to made up problems. I just wondered what my options were before since I couldn't just look the application up at Auto Zone. And I can't take mine down there and ask them for a plug that matches this application since they wouldn't know that either. So I'm going with NGK and I was glad to hear Keri supported that and interested when trabant601 said he was going with Bosch. That's all. I have found this an interesting thread. Oh and I have heard that since Beru acquired Isolator they are not as good as NOS DDR production. Don't know whether that is true but I have avoided them.
  17. turbofiat124

    turbofiat124 Premium Member Forum Donor

    Thought I'd revive any old thread.

    Keri mentions that you can use an NGK BR6HS in a Trabant. This seems to be a universal 2 stroke 49cc spark plug used in my Vespa Ciao Clone Kinetic's engine, and Tomos.

    I installed one of those E3 plus in my Snapper's Kolher and my 49cc Chineese pit bike. It's hard to tell if they really any better than a standard plug. To be honest I've ran just about every make of plug in my Fiats and cannot tell any difference.

    I thought I might try the E3 plugs is my Trabant just to see if I see any difference. The E3 plug than crosses over with the NGK is E3.32. I cannot find any cross reference to the Isolators used in our Trabants using the website below:

    http://www.sparkplug-crossreference.com/
  18. 'bant

    'bant Loyal Comrade

    Time to disturb a sleeping thread...

    I was looking to see if I can get spark plugs to fit my Trabant locally. Biltema sell a Brisk one that is listed as for the Trabant o_O and is the equivalent of the NGK BR7HS and the BR8HS. Does anyone have experience of the Brisk spark plugs? They sell another one which corresponds to the BR6HS so I presume that is a hotter plug. Coincidently also listed as for the 2CV series of cars which would make my spare parts store a little simpler.

    The plugs I got from Trabantwelt and have just put in my Trabant are the B7HS and the engine is running a bit better after the change. The Isolator plugs they replaced (14-225 which seems to be equivalent to NGK 7 plugs in terms of temperature) looked dark brown when I pulled them after a couple of thousand winter kilometres (10,000km in total). So I was wondering if hotter plugs would be better for my winter driving pattern (lots of 10-15 minute journeys and a few trips of an hour or so at temperatures down to -15'c) while keeping the cooler plugs for the summer?
  19. Lasse

    Lasse Newbie

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
  20. RogerDerSchrauber

    RogerDerSchrauber Premium Member Forum Donor

    I used Isolator DDR m14/225s for 20 km. It ran great with them for the past two years. The idle and performance went downhill lately, however. I couldn't find anything else that might cause it, so I changed the plugs to some NGK B7HS I had lying around. Wow! What a difference- Now it runs like a brand new car!

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