1935 Miller-Ford Indy 500 Race Car

Home Page: Rick Eggers
Cape Coral, FL, USA

Total Posts: 36

Making Good Progress

Rick Eggers — Posted on The Cyclekart Club
Tuesday October 31, 2017 7:50 AM

I'm nearly done with the experimental torsion bar front suspension. Everything is there to the point where I could support the axle with jack stands and actually put my weight on the frame to test it. It feels like it's going to be pretty stiff.
According to the formula I was given for figuring out the spring rate of torsion bars, it should be around 83#.

cycle kart front suspension mock up 001

Member Comments on Journal Entry: Making Good Progress ↵

2017-10-31 10:38:36 # 45572

Comment by Lowell Roemke

That's neat! What material did you use for the torwion bars?

2017-10-31 10:55:01 # 45573

Comment by Charles Schultz

Looks great. 83 lb/in may be about right

2017-10-31 16:39:38 # 45575

Comment by Rick Eggers

Charles, I ended up going with a 5.5" arm on the torsion bar. That means the wheel, and the actual point of force on the axle, will be about 7" outboard of the attachment point of the arm to the axle. What effect, if any, will this have on the suspension?

2017-10-31 16:41:17 # 45576

Comment by Rick Eggers

Lowell, It's a secret for now. I want to do some testing before I reveal it. If you look closely at the picture, you might see a name brand on the bar.

2017-10-31 16:50:45 # 45577

Comment by Charles Schultz

Offsetting the end of the torsion arm from the actuation point at the wheel can complicate the math. I think you will be OK.BTW, all steels, regardless of hardness, have the same torsional stiffness. The harder steels/better alloys will last longer as they have a higher tolerance for stress cycles. I'll make my first torsion bars from AISI 1018 & if they lose their "springiness" I'll move on to AISI 4140 HT'd to 300 HB.

2017-10-31 17:15:56 # 45578

Comment by Rick Eggers

Well, I'm kind of at the point of no return now. This is either going to work or it's not. Did you see in the picture, the anchor end of the torsion bar is adjustable. I can use it to adjust the ride height, or to jack weight into one corner or the other. If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing. I can also adjust the length of the links, because they just 2 heims, a male screwed into a female.

2017-10-31 17:58:52 # 45579

Comment by Charles Schultz

The traditional way of adjusting ride height on a parallel torsion bar midget is to index the arm or the stop to get the height "right." One side is directly mounted to the "bird cage" [rear ax;e] or front axle bracket. The other side has an adjustable length link [made of two heim joints as you have done] so the car can "roll" through the corners. It is a time tested suspension that scales up to champ dirt cars and down to midgets. TQs, and Half midgets. If you have a race car museum nearby you can learn a lot just by looking. Cross torsion bar systems are slightly different since they use a panard bar for axial location of the axle.

2017-10-31 22:36:21 # 45582

Comment by Brian Woods

How much do you figure all of this is going to weigh?And how will that compare to the traditional buggy spring??Brian

2017-11-01 14:10:53 # 45596

Comment by Charles Schultz

Generally speaking torsion bar systems are lighter than leaf springs and about the same as coil springs over tube shocks. For torsion systems you can save weight by making the arms and stops from aluminum

2017-11-01 14:25:33 # 45597

Comment by Brian Woods

Not to steal Rick's Thread here, but what he is doing here may be the way I will go to make room for my in the Belly Tank.Brian

2017-11-01 15:15:52 # 45600

Comment by Rick Eggers

Brian, I don't think it weighs any more than leaf springs do. I only did it this way so the suspension willl fit inside the bodywork. Look at a 1935 Miller indycar and imagine it with leaf springs showing. It would ruin the clean look.

2017-11-01 16:45:50 # 45604

Comment by Brian Woods

I hear you!

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Adjustable Camber Spindles

Rick Eggers — Posted on The Cyclekart Club
Tuesday October 31, 2017 4:44 PM

I still have some work to do on these, but this pic should give you an idea how they work. They adjust from approximately 1 degree positive to about 4 degrees negative camber.
Oh, and I found this awesome smart phone app, a clinometer. It reads out in tenths of a degree. Makes a job like this easy.

cycle kart front suspension mock up 007

clinometer

Member Comments on Journal Entry: Adjustable Camber Spindles ↵

2017-11-01 06:58:27 # 45592

Comment by Jake Yuenger

Quite clever

2017-11-01 15:19:55 # 45601

Comment by Steve Vinson

That's pretty cool, just make sure you also build in some Camber 7 degrees seems to work well.

2017-11-01 15:23:21 # 45602

Comment by Charles Schultz

Did you mean 7 degrees of caster? Caster is kingpin tilt front to rear while camber is kingpin tilt

2017-11-01 15:29:42 # 45603

Comment by Steve Vinson

DUUUUHHH yes Caster. Sorry, I was looking at the post and saw "camber" and just wrote that.Thanks Charles for pointing out my error. Cheers!

2017-11-01 16:56:02 # 45605

Comment by Rick Eggers

They're set at eight degrees caster and fourteen degrees KPI, which should result in zero scrub radius. I'm really looking forward to driving this thing to see if the extra work was worth it.

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Front End Mocked Up On '35 Miller-Ford

Rick Eggers — Posted on The Cyclekart Club
Tuesday November 7, 2017 12:32 PM

It's all there now. It looks a little busy with the addition of the rack and pinion, tie rods, and panhard bar, but it's really pretty simple. Everything is just tacked right now, until I'm happy with the way it all fits and works. There are just a couple minor clearance issues to address, then I'll take it apart and finish all the welds, and paint it. Then it will be assembled with the proper bolts, not the junk that I used for the mock-up.

front end mock up 001

front end mock up 002

Member Comments on Journal Entry: Front End Mocked Up On '35 Miller-Ford ↵

Rated 10 out of 10 based on 1 ratings

2017-11-09 19:53:38 # 45844

Comment by Brian Woods

Looks great!Are you able to simulate how it might work with forces applied at this point?And are you going to make the streamline covers as on the original V8Millers.Do you know how many still exist and the total number built?I have seen and read conflicting numbers!Brian

2017-11-09 20:19:09 # 45847

Comment by Charles Schultz

Ten were built. The steering boxes were too close to the exhaust manifolds and several crashed. Hank Ford was furious and they got sold off. Bits and pieces raced at Indy into the 1950's. Andy Granetelli of STP fame tried to qualify one in the late 1940s and crashed severely. One is at the Speedway Motors museum in Lincoln Nebraska. I think four have been restored.

2017-11-09 20:51:10 # 45851

Comment by Rick Eggers

Charles, Somebody is vintage racing one. It's red and white with a number 35 on it. One is in the Henry Ford Museum, and one is in the Indianapolis Speedway Museum. I wish they were closer so I could go look and drool.

2017-11-09 20:59:36 # 45852

Comment by Rick Eggers

Brian, Yes, I stood on the frame rails and bounced up and down. It's springy. I haven't been able to measure the frame drop with my 230 pounds on it, but it looks to be around an inch or slightly more. I'm definitely going to make the aluminum covers like the original cars had. Ford had Harry Miller build ten of these and around half are still around, as far as I can tell on the internet. It was a late deal and there wasn't sufficient time to test and debug before trying to qualify. They were fast, but as Charles said, the aluminum steering boxes were positioned too close to the exhaust manifold causing them to overheat and seize up.

2017-11-09 21:29:28 # 45853

Comment by Brian Woods

Thanks!And yes, that is one of the stories I have heard.And Chuck......I goy my simulator 45 Gal drum last night!Brian

2017-11-10 13:00:43 # 45863

Comment by Zoran R. P.

Rating: 10/10

Hello, Rick, I wanted before to ask "where is Panhard rod", but now you installed it. That would be quite precisely positioned front axle and suspension/steering! Good work shall follow I am sure, and I will with a joy wait at next operations. Regards, Zoran

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Miller-Ford V8 Indy Car

Rick Eggers — Posted on The Cyclekart Club
Tuesday November 14, 2017 7:38 PM

Fourteen heim joints and the front suspension is done.

Front suspension 003

Front suspension 005

Member Comments on Journal Entry: Miller-Ford V8 Indy Car ↵

2017-11-14 19:54:13 # 45926

Comment by Charles Schultz

Shock absorbers?

2017-11-14 21:17:12 # 45929

Comment by Rick Eggers

Nope

2017-11-17 08:14:33 # 45988

Comment by Gregg Kishline

Rick,I did a similar front end including the rack & pinion. I realize bump-steer is only a minor consideration, however ... Did you consider putting the rack on the axle, rather than the frame? The steering shaft can float. Also, the track bar goes away, if one torsion arm attaches to a fixed bracket welded to the axle - a floating link on one side only. Not being critical, just following openwheel midget practice dating back to WWII.

2017-11-18 09:58:53 # 46043

Comment by Rick Eggers

Thanks for the input Gregg. Somebody pointed out that I could do the torsion bar arm arrangement you describe, but I already had the parts made, so I did it this way. I never thought about putting the rack on the axle. It seems a little odd. I don't think there's going to be a lot of suspension travel, so bump-steer shouldn't be a problem. We'll see.

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Miller-Ford V-8 Indy Car

Rick Eggers — Posted on The Cyclekart Club
Saturday December 9, 2017 1:59 PM

I've been working on the steel structure that will be the skeleton of the body. Getting the hoops shaped just right is a challenge, but I think it's looking good so far. Everything is just tacked in place until I'm satisfied that I won't have to re-do anything, then I'll add some gussets and weld it all up. The '35 Miller-Ford had a lower cockpit side on the left, I assume for getting in and out of the car easier. So I did my cockpit sides similar to that. I'm not sure if I like it that way or not. Opinions?

Body skeleton 001

Body skeleton 002

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Miller-Ford V-8 Indy Car

Rick Eggers — Posted on The Cyclekart Club
Tuesday December 12, 2017 5:40 PM

I had a dentist appointment this morning and when I got home I didn't really feel like welding or anything else on the car, so I decided to sit in front of the lathe and turn my instrument panel. What a tedious job that is.

Member Comments on Journal Entry: Miller-Ford V-8 Indy Car ↵

2017-12-16 11:20:41 # 46973

Comment by Brian Woods

I was thinking about engine turning my sash panel as well.But, I have never done it before, and friends that have , say it is a laborious task.Please post or send pictures, I would love to see how it turned out...pardon the pun.Brian

2017-12-16 20:05:59 # 46991

Comment by Rick Eggers

Hey Brian,See the new post with pictures and descriptions of the process.Now that I've figured out a good way to do it, the next one won't be so bad.

2017-12-16 22:04:32 # 46996

Comment by Brian Woods

Thanks RickI have talked to guys that put pencils, eraser down in their drill press to turn small circle in small panels.Yours looks fabulous in the pictures.Brian

2017-12-16 22:14:12 # 46997

Comment by Rick Eggers

Thanks. I heard about the pencil method too, but I needed bigger circles for a large panel.

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